2009.01.02 Phenomenology Workshop #3 - The Kira Institute
Starting from a scientific world view - we ask the question, what else is true
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2009.01.02 Phenomenology Workshop #3

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Lia
Storm Nordwind: Please ensure he understands this will be recorded and may be published
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Wester
genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone
Aurora Kitaj: Hi gen
Lia Rikugun: hello hello
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Gen
Wester Kiranov: hi
Aurora Kitaj: Hello Scathach
Storm Nordwind: Hi gen
Tenk Kidd: Hello everyone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Aurora, Lia
Tarmel Udimo: hi all
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hey Tarmel:)
Wester Kiranov: hi pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Pema
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel and pema
Tarmel Udimo: hi
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Vico and Pila
Tarmel Udimo: hi
Vico Rabeni: hello
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Everyone
genesis Zhangsun: before we get started I would like to warn everyone who participates that they will become part of a recorded log
Pila Mulligan is Online
genesis Zhangsun: which will be posted on the Kira Institute website http://www.kira.org/
genesis Zhangsun: for more information on our organization and what we are doing please also see that site
genesis Zhangsun: thanks!
genesis Zhangsun: shall we get started?
Pema Pera: Sure, thanks, Gen!
Pema Pera: For those of you know here, it may be a bit odd to fall in the middle of the conversations we are having
Wester Kiranov: new here?
Pema Pera: even though it's only our third meeting, we've covered a lot of ground through, wat, a hundred (?) emails that we have exchanged so far
Pema Pera: new here
Pema Pera: sorry yes
Pema Pera: none of us know to much here :-)
Pema Pera: we are all learning
Aurora Kitaj: yes indeed
Pema Pera: let me make a few remarks about our initiative here, for old timers as well as new visitors
Pema Pera: The MOST important part of these experiments is: you cannot do them wrong! We are in a stage of exploration, we are literally surveying new land, like Lewis and Clark.
Pema Pera: The only thing we can do wrong, and will do wrong for quite a while, is miscommunicating. But that's okay, we have no choice!
Pema Pera: We'll just happily keep miscommunicating until we develop a good-enough shared fresh and new vocabulary.
Pema Pera: In the kitchen: cook until done. In the lab: make mistakes until done.
Pema Pera: we are treating our life as a lab, in some sense
Pema Pera: well, where shall we start today?
Wester Kiranov: there are actually two things i would like to discuss
Pema Pera: (by the way: our email group discussion is publicly readable on http://groups.google.com/group/kira-phenomenology-workshop
Alfred Kelberry: hey! :)
Wester Kiranov: first, it might be slightly ot, but i was very unhappy with how the gilles in or out topic went
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, i'm late a bit
Lia Rikugun: hello alfred
Wester Kiranov: hi alfred
Aurora Kitaj: Hello again Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: glad to see all of you :)
Alfred Kelberry: morning, pema
Wester Kiranov: and second, maybe we could go back a bit on why exactly we are doing all this
Alfred Kelberry: aw.. my seat is taken :)
Wester Kiranov: just my 2 cents
Tarmel Udimo: yu can have mine alfred
Pema Pera: Do you want to say more about your first point, Wester?
Alfred Kelberry: oh no, no worries :)
Tarmel Udimo: I am happy to sit y the fire
Pema Pera: What would you like to see changed, improved?
Alfred Kelberry: thanks, vico :)
Tenk Kidd: I'm sorry if I'm in yours, Alfred - first timer ignorance...
Pema Pera: no assigned seats here Tenk :-)
Tenk Kidd: ;)
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, tenk. it's just this joke of mine. i have this spot by the fire that i like :)
Alfred Kelberry: didn't know you're into ruby, pema :)
Alfred Kelberry: although.. knowing your interest in japan :)
Pema Pera: see http://www.artcompsci.org/ Alfred, for Ruby
Pema Pera: Wester?
Alfred Kelberry: have you met matz?
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, offtopic. after the meeting.
Pema Pera: genesis Zhangsun mentioned that you were very unhappy . . . .
Alfred Kelberry: oh, wester?
Wester Kiranov: ... about the gilles thing, yes
Alfred Kelberry: ah.. yes, me too
Wester Kiranov: i thought it escalated needlessly
Alfred Kelberry: very much so
Pema Pera: so what can we learn from this?
Wester Kiranov: good question
Pema Pera: what could have prevented escalation?
Wester Kiranov: i thought at some time later in the "discussion" I could have listened more and explained less
Tarmel Udimo: a few ground rules perhaps
Tarmel Udimo: a few ground rules perhaps
Tarmel Udimo: sorry mycompuer lagging
Alfred Kelberry: maybe less rules?
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: there were none
Alfred Kelberry: we're got too formal in that thread discussion
Wester Kiranov: we did not
Pema Pera: email is a very difficult medium to handle these kinds of questions
Pema Pera: being in SL in real time is much better already
Alfred Kelberry: especially when gilles himself is not present
Pema Pera: and I think the obvious solution is for Gilles to have his own group
Pema Pera: I heard he was happy with the invitation I sent him
Scathach Rhiadra: has Gilles replied to the suggestion of a second group?
Pema Pera: but he has been out of email contact for a few days
Alfred Kelberry: holidays, i assume
Pema Pera: I heard from someone else that Gilles was happy about the idea, but couldn't contact me yet
Pema Pera: so we will hear more soon
Tarmel Udimo: was it stated up front that to be part of the group you had to do the experiments
Wester Kiranov: it sounds like a good idea, if gilles is ok with it
Pema Pera: we had nothing up front Tarmel
Alfred Kelberry: it's funny, with the new reports coming last few days, i forgot about this issue before wes brought it up
Lia Rikugun: :)
Pema Pera: shall we postpone this discussion until Gilles is with us, hopefully next week?
Lia Rikugun: they were all so interesting
Alfred Kelberry: yes, indeed
Wester Kiranov: they were
Pema Pera: and move to Wester's second point?
Pema Pera: why we do this?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, please, pema
Pema Pera: well, why are we here? Anybody?
Lia Rikugun: try to change our perspective
Lia Rikugun: of seeing things
Lia Rikugun: opening ou rminds
Scathach Rhiadra: to explore Phenomenology?
Lia Rikugun: :)
Alfred Kelberry: to share our explorations and find our way to the "seen" experiment
Alfred Kelberry: at least for today :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, have you read my suggestion, pema?
Natel Avro is Online
Pema Pera: My personal view, and that's just me, is: phenomenology, the study of phenomena, can help us to see more of what is going on in daily life, on a raw and direct level.
Pema Pera: Practical implcations of that:
Pema Pera: instead of solving problems we encounter directly, ignoring our too-narrow mindset
Pema Pera: we can learn to first open up our way of looking at anything at all, as Lia said
Pema Pera: and then most of our problems will be seen to be solved already, or most easier
Pema Pera: But I'm sure others have other perspectives, I'd love to hear those too.
Alfred Kelberry: you've pretty much summed it up, pema. on a higher abstraction level :)
Aurora Kitaj: Pema, I certainly need to improve my problem solving skills so any insights are very welcome
Pema Pera: the main point is to see how enormously narrow our way of looking at the world is
Alfred Kelberry: for me it's to get a broader view to the world and every day phenomena
Pema Pera: we look through a few tiny slits, but we can easily open up -- very quickly in fact
Tarmel Udimo: my understanding was through this process we will be learning how to make direct contact with Being
Prospero Frobozz is Offline
Pema Pera: Well, that is a topic for different meetings, Tarmel :-)
Tarmel Udimo: ohhh
Pema Pera: we are starting here from daily life
Storm Nordwind: I have a pragmatic point of view: what can Pheno contribute to me, and what can I contribute to it. Practical experimentation may help answer that question.
idanthology Sandalwood: hello & happy new year
Pema Pera: from what is given immediately: subjects and objects
Tarmel Udimo: hi idant
idanthology Sandalwood: am i 2 late for the discussion?
Lia Rikugun: happy new year!!!
Alfred Kelberry: that's a bit of a leap, tarmel. please, wait a bit :)
Pema Pera: Yes, Storm, that's the main question for me too
Prospero Frobozz is Online
Pema Pera: Shall we talk about this mysterious 2b) experiment, the "seen" variation?
Alfred Kelberry: no, ida, we've just started. please, take a seat.
idanthology Sandalwood accepted your inventory offer.
Pema Pera: I have been trying to describe it, but perhaps others can try to summarize 2b) in their own words?
Alfred Kelberry: my suggestion, pema: "i've seen maybe 5 times already when you tried to give this explanation (happily, i served as a reference a few times :) so, to ease your life, and life of others (especially new members), it would be good to write a _concise_ description of "seeing" and "seen" experiments, with an emphasis on troublesome "active/passive role reversal", and make it "sticky" (not sure if it's possible here, though)."
Alfred Kelberry: hi, pros
Pema Pera: (just got an IM from Quen: Gilles tried to join us, could not get in, but wanted to tell us that he is very enthusiastic about starting a general philosophy group, to get together here in the Kira Cafe -- great news!)
Alfred Kelberry: great news, pema!
Prospero Frobozz: Gilles couldn't get into SL, or couldn't get into this sim?
Wester Kiranov: that is great news for sure
Pema Pera: I've tried to give that concise description, Alfred . . . perhaps someone else should try now?
Pema Pera: no, Pros, local problems for GIlles with internet
Prospero Frobozz: ok
Pema Pera: 2) Subject-Object reversal: there are two variations, the
 "seeing" and the "seen" variant:

2a) in the "seeing" variation, we remain a subject, as in 1),
 and the only difference is that we try to put ourselves
 in the position of the object (what you called the pleasant
 de-centeredness). So what is reversed here is the *position*
 of the subject, BUT we firmly remain a subject.

2b) in the "seen" variation, we do not change our position, we
 remain where we were in 1), but we reverse our *role*, in
 that we are no longer the active subject, but rather we take
 on a more passive object role. We are seen period, nothing
Alfred Kelberry: the key point is to make it public for everyone in one place
Pema Pera: This was my concise attempt, Alfred, how about other ones?
Wester Kiranov: my take on 2b: you try to revserse just subject and object roles, without doing anything about the content of those roles.
Alfred Kelberry: not everyone is going through chunks of posts
Pema Pera: good point, Alfred, we may need a wiki instead
Pema Pera: yes, Wester, we have to talk more about what we mean with "subject"
Alfred Kelberry: new members haven't read it and went down the same "seeing" path i did
Alfred Kelberry: we could post it on kira.org
Pema Pera: a wiki would allow all of us to contribute
Wester Kiranov: a wili sounds very good
Alfred Kelberry: well, that would be ideal
Wester Kiranov: *wiki
Pema Pera: Alfred, do you volunteer for setting up one?
Pema Pera: You seem to have abundant energy :)
Alfred Kelberry: sure, i can do that
Pema Pera: great!
Wester Kiranov: wow
Alfred Kelberry: ha.. i wish :)
Pema Pera: we wish, you do
Pema Pera: :)
Alfred Kelberry: the question is.. where? :)
Pema Pera: perhaps you can look around; there are many free or almost-free wikis
Alfred Kelberry: aha, those. ok.
Pema Pera: and report in our email group
Pema Pera: Coming back to the "seen" experiment
Alfred Kelberry: i thought maybe wiki.kira.org or something
Pema Pera: no need to connect it directly to kira
Pema Pera: we can have a pointer from the Kira page to wherever it lives
Alfred Kelberry: it could be useful for other kira projects, too
Pema Pera: wikis are easy to generate :)
Pema Pera: best to keep projects separate, for now at least
Pema Pera: to not confuse what is happening where
Pema Pera: Coming back to the "seen" experiment
Pema Pera: some of you did that, but many of you had difficulty figuring out what I meant with that
Tarmel Udimo: I was confused about your response to myself and gen and mike?
Pema Pera: in what way, Tarmel?
Pema Pera: ah, about going beyond subject and object?
Tarmel Udimo: i wasn't being an object?
Pema Pera: Yes, Storm did that too, in fact
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Pema Pera: well, the point of this particular experiment is not to drop the subject/object split
Pema Pera: that would be a different, harder experiment
Pema Pera: but rather to reverse the roles, keeping the split
Tarmel Udimo: I think to get to 'beyond' one had to first be the object
Pema Pera: many ways, Tarmel, it can happen spontaneously
Pema Pera: and it often happens, but then we equally spontaneously forget :)
Pema Pera: (it doesn't fit into our memory banks very well)
Tarmel Udimo: okay just read the above...the point of this particular experiment is not to drop the subject/object split and now understand
Pema Pera: I think it will be nice to keep trying for a few weeks until we are all on the same page
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Pema Pera: and know what 2b) is, how you do it
Pema Pera: I thought about one variation:
Lia Rikugun: the same experiments with the spoon?
Pema Pera: perhaps taking a far away object rather than a spoon
Pema Pera: a mountain, or far away building
Pema Pera: and perhaps even many objects at the same time
Pema Pera: you can infact do subject-object reversal with ALL that you see . . . .
Lia Rikugun: i think many objects at the same time is very inetersting
Storm Nordwind: Many subjects may look at the same object. When I became the object, I was conscious that the subject could have been anything in the room, and quite possibly was!
Alfred Kelberry: many objects.. maybe not so soon? :)
Pema Pera: hahaha, Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: i can hardly handle one :)
Pema Pera: each of us can choose their pace
Pema Pera: yes, Storm
Pema Pera: and yes, Lia
Pema Pera: AHAHA
Wester Kiranov: we could keep it at one spoon and one free form
Pema Pera: yours is not to handle, Alfred
Pema Pera: when you are an object :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, "handle"
Tarmel Udimo: good point storm
genesis Zhangsun: I would like to suggest some guidelines to maintain some consistency to the lab reports?
Pema Pera: good point, Gen!
genesis Zhangsun: such as perhaps using similar objects or perhaps including a time reference
Aurora Kitaj: yes
genesis Zhangsun: I don't know if it matters but perhaps it would be interesting to see how long people are spending on this
genesis Zhangsun: for me I know it takes me at least 30 minutes just to settle down/in
genesis Zhangsun: to do the experiment
Pema Pera: I suggest that you also do them in one-minute intervals
Pema Pera: even though it may be interesting to do them longer
Alfred Kelberry: and to focus on our goal - the "seen" experiment. and also exclude the confusion between the "seeing". i suggest to leave just one, the former.
Pila Mulligan: 2(b) or not 2(b), is that the question?
Pema Pera: shorter has the advantage that it can flip you out of the usual state
Lia Rikugun: what do you mean my one minute interval pema?
genesis Zhangsun: :) at Pila
Alfred Kelberry: pila! :)
Tarmel Udimo: hahahah
Storm Nordwind throws a cushion at Pila
Pema Pera: haha, Pila!
Wester Kiranov: :D
Pema Pera: So here is my suggestion: let the job be to figure out as clearly as we can what 2b) might be
Pema Pera: for one week, this one week
Pema Pera: perhaps with far away objects
Pema Pera: perhaps with a spoon
Pema Pera: perhaps with all objects that you see
Pema Pera: perhaps . . gasp . . . with all objects around you, even behind your back
Alfred Kelberry: i like a mountain
Pema Pera: Or do we want more structure than that?
Prospero Frobozz: I missed a few weeks -- thanks to Aurora for filling me in with backchat from today. But, can we summarize what this 2b experiment is? I'm kinda getting a vague sense from context, but it remains very vague to me.
Pema Pera: 2) Subject-Object reversal: there are two variations, the
 "seeing" and the "seen" variant:

2a) in the "seeing" variation, we remain a subject, as in 1),
 and the only difference is that we try to put ourselves
 in the position of the object (what you called the pleasant
 de-centeredness). So what is reversed here is the *position*
 of the subject, BUT we firmly remain a subject.

2b) in the "seen" variation, we do not change our position, we
 remain where we were in 1), but we reverse our *role*, in
 that we are no longer the active subject, but rather we take
 on a more passive object role. We are seen period, nothing
Prospero Frobozz: Oh, sorry, I did see that :)
Wester Kiranov: maybe a bit more clarification on the amount of imagination needed?
Prospero Frobozz: I guess I'm still just confused :)
Tarmel Udimo: structure and ground rules are different :-)
Prospero Frobozz: Could you potentially give a concrete example?
Alfred Kelberry: pros, you're not the only one :)
Pema Pera: I think there is no answer, Wester, we are exploring
Pema Pera: Pros, did you read the 20 or so reports?
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we can refine a bit more what we mean by "role" v. position
Pema Pera: they are all pretty concrete
Alfred Kelberry: pros, http://groups.google.com/group/kira-phenomenology-workshop
Prospero Frobozz: Ah, OK
Prospero Frobozz: I will look at those, thanks
Prospero Frobozz is not in the google group
Alfred Kelberry: you can find experiments done by the members there
Pema Pera: anyone can read, Pros
genesis Zhangsun: yes but I think it is fine anyway to go back to square one for Pros and all of us
Alfred Kelberry: it's public
Pema Pera: publicly readable
Pema Pera: would you like me to add you, Pros?
genesis Zhangsun: what do we all think position means v. role?
Prospero Frobozz: Pema : yes please
genesis Zhangsun: for me in 2a position switching still feels role switching/role playing
Lia Rikugun: role is either subject or object right
Lia Rikugun: ?
Lia Rikugun: and position where the attention lies
Pema Pera: yes, I think 2b) is far more profound
Pema Pera: in asking you to give up the subject role altogether
Pema Pera: yes, Lia, position is where you feel you are
Leandra Kohnke is Online
Alfred Kelberry: gen, for me position is consciousness and role is either active or passive - the observing entity
Pema Pera: your location
Tarmel Udimo: 2b) allows you to disengage from your 'role"
Pema Pera: yes
Lia Rikugun: pema you mentioned something about one minute intervals for the experiment
Lia Rikugun: i did not understand what you meant exatcly ithink
Pema Pera: yes, I recommend in fact not to spend too long on the experiment, at least not every time
Pema Pera: the switch takes no time
Pema Pera: once you get a sense, you can do it in less than a second
Pema Pera: spending a very long time is likely to make it harder
Alfred Kelberry: you spend too much time and you may end up napping :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Pema Pera: YET it can also help you to drop your resistance (spending more time)
Pema Pera: no general rules here :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
genesis Zhangsun: I would say though that for me anyway who has no training in this I would feel that a one minute switch may lead me to some false conclusions
Lia Rikugun: ok i think i understzand
Lia Rikugun: maybe spending too much time, you will try too hard
Pema Pera: that would be fine, Gen
Pema Pera: all of research is producing false conclusions
Pema Pera: many of them
Pema Pera: you write them down
genesis Zhangsun: yes this level of engagement/time for engagement was actually my insight of the week
Pema Pera: comparing ntoes with othes
Storm Nordwind: I think we are at the stage when 'false' does not yet a have a meaning
Pema Pera: !
genesis Zhangsun: true Storm
Tarmel Udimo: I agree
Pema Pera: trying to get things right right away is wrong :-)
Wester Kiranov: and true, does that have ameaning?
genesis Zhangsun: I just would feel that we also don't want to get sort of too contented with ourselves by convincing ourselves that a minute is enough
Storm Nordwind: true is simply authentic
Prospero Frobozz: How about "useful" versus "not useful" or "less useful" conclusions?
Pema Pera: true, Gen
genesis Zhangsun: it is certainly different for everyone
Pema Pera: yes, Pros!
genesis Zhangsun: I think that is a good way to thing about it Pros
genesis Zhangsun: *think
Wester Kiranov: i do still feel there might be some confusion on the meaning of "role"
Pema Pera: yes, Wester?
Wester Kiranov: object/subject is a role, but spoon/me are roles too
Pema Pera: (and then we should end; it's 3 pm)
Tarmel Udimo: except that as storm pointed out each of us is having an authentic (hopefully) experience
Alfred Kelberry: ah, tempus fugit
Tenk Kidd: Thank you all, for tolerating an active listener.
Pema Pera: but who is giving the role spoon to the spoon, Wester?
Pema Pera: hehe, Tenk :)
Pema Pera: you;re very welcome
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we could all consider this week what the difference between role and position is for us as we do the exploration?
Wester Kiranov: when you try to make the spoon subject, you as an object are still "me"
genesis Zhangsun: What is the exploration for the week anyway>
Tarmel Udimo: heheheh
Alfred Kelberry: tarmel, it is authentic if you're engaged in it
Pema Pera: Gen, I suggested this:
Storm Nordwind would like a quick summary of the task for the week
Pema Pera: So here is my suggestion: let the job be to figure out as clearly as we can what 2b) might be
Pema Pera: for one week, this one week
Pema Pera: perhaps with far away objects
Pema Pera: perhaps with a spoon
Pema Pera: perhaps with all objects that you see
Pema Pera: perhaps . . gasp . . . with all objects around you, even behind your back
Pema Pera: is that okay with everybody?
Lia Rikugun: yes
Alfred Kelberry: to give a definition of the "seen" experiment?
Tarmel Udimo: yes alfred that was in response to the term useful or not...
Prospero Frobozz is having a very, very, very hard time resisting saying "There is no spoon" over and over again
genesis Zhangsun: may I request that people add how much time they are spending too?
Prospero Frobozz: :)
Storm Nordwind laughs and sympathises with Pros!
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Alfred Kelberry: pros, actually.. you're the first one to say it! :)
Alfred Kelberry: and i've been waiting for the whole week! :)
Alfred Kelberry gives pros a cookie
Pema Pera: Gen, we'll try to add time!
Prospero Frobozz saves the cookie in his browser cache
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Pema Pera: thank you everybody for coming over!
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, pema!
Lia Rikugun: thank you
Alfred Kelberry: sadly, it's been to ofast :/
Storm Nordwind: Tempus fugit - - Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
Lia Rikugun: it was very inetersting
Pema Pera: As Alfred reminded us, we have Happy Hour here every day, 2 pm
Wester Kiranov: thank you everybody
Tenk Kidd: Thank you. :)
Tarmel Udimo: thanks all
Pema Pera: we can continue each day at that time, if we like
Alfred Kelberry: yes, please, come
Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone
Pema Pera: or after talks when they happen at that time
Prospero Frobozz will come when he can, but often has a complicated schedule
genesis Zhangsun: Thanks all see you next week
Alfred Kelberry: hint: we can discuss pheno _even_ without pema :)
Pema Pera: I hope so !!!!
Storm Nordwind: "There is no Pema..."
Alfred Kelberry: pros, no holidays at linden lab? :)
Alfred Kelberry: haha
Pema Pera: :)
Alfred Kelberry: storm :)
Storm Nordwind: "...only a spoon" :)
Prospero Frobozz: alfred : well, today is one actually :) But I was late because I was out getting catfood, and didn't get back until after this started. (Oops!)
Tarmel Udimo: laughing
Prospero Frobozz blames the cats
Alfred Kelberry can't wait to do the pema reversal :)
Lia Rikugun: :D
Lia Rikugun: good night everybody

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