Workshop #2 2009.01.27 - The Kira Institute
Starting from a scientific world view - we ask the question, what else is true
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Workshop #2 2009.01.27
Storm Nordwind: Hi Maxine
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine:)
Maxine Walden: hi, Storm, Scath
Maxine Walden: and Fefonz
Maxine Walden: nice to see you
Fefonz Quan: Hi Maxine :)
Storm Nordwind: Is it just me or is the main events board on the wall above barrels black at the moment?
Maxine Walden: perhaps a smallish group today
Maxine Walden: I am not sure
Maxine Walden: hi, Mickorod
Maxine Walden: hi Arabella
arabella Ella: hiya Maxine
arabella Ella: good to c u again
Maxine Walden: and Aeolia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello, Mickorod, arabella, Aeolia
Maxine Walden: yes and to see you as well
Storm Nordwind: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: hi everyone
Aeolia Underwood: hello to all
Mickorod Renard: maxine
Mickorod Renard: storm
Maxine Walden: Storm, could you remind us of the autorecord function, and perhaps tell me where it is here?
Fefonz Quan: Hi Mick, Arabella, Aeolia
arabella Ella: Hiya Fefonz, Storm
Storm Nordwind: OK Maxine. There is no autorecord here at the moment. It depends on your taking a chatlog personally.
Maxine Walden: OK, will do that
Storm Nordwind: For everyone's benefit I have to do the formal stuff...
Storm Nordwind: Just to remind everyone formally... When the ON AIR sign is illuminated, we may be recording what is happening in the Kira Cafe. This means that anything you say may be recorded automatically. It may also be published, along with your avatar name. If you do not consent to this, please leave the Kira Cafe when the ON AIR is lit. By staying when the sign is lit you are giving consent for your name and chat to be recorded and published. Logs may be published on the Kira website -
Storm Nordwind: Or if you prefer Japanese...
Storm Nordwind: ON AIR ?????????Kira?Cafe?????????????????
?????????????????ON AIR ???????? Kira Cafe ??????????
???????? Kira Cafe ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Maxine Walden: wow, choice of languages
Storm Nordwind: We're on the air
arabella Ella: it looks so pretty
Maxine Walden: OK, we have a fairly small group today so maybe do not need a moderator, but
Storm Nordwind: I would guess not
Maxine Walden: if we seem to need one, Storm, would you play that role?
Storm Nordwind: Sure. Let's see how it goes
Maxine Walden: We can just see how it goes.
Maxine Walden: I had thought that I might begin by presenting a dream of my own from a few weeks back
Storm Nordwind: To explain, if we need a moderator, all questions to Maxine will go through IM first to me
Maxine Walden: I will give some context of the dream, then the dream and then how I understood the dream.
Maxine Walden: That may illustrate some of what we were talking about last time,
Maxine Walden: regarding the dream as messenger, and organizer of experienc
Maxine Walden: experience
Maxine Walden: Does that seem OK with everyone?
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
arabella Ella: yes it does
Fefonz Quan: OK++
Maxine Walden: Example of dream as messenger: recently I have been in intense conversation with colleauges and on the evening before the dream I was expressing my thoughts intensely, trying to make some points, hoping to persuade my colleagues of the rightness of my viewpoint, and all that seemed to be happening in the room was that things were heating up, more tense, which I think was each of us becoming more embattled in our positions, not really listening to one another.
Maxine Walden: So here's the dream: I and others are looking at a very large book, sort of family bible size, encased in a hard plastic transparent substance, wuch that it could not be opened at all, not reached nor touched. Eveyone trying to open it, getting frustrated. Then in some way I approach the book and in a way which I cannot recall the case falls away and I am able to open this large book, with a blue cover and find that on the inside it is morless just dusty with old bits of paper, old addresses, pockets that have nothing of value in them Just old and must, no valuable text or message at all...that is the dream.
Maxine Walden: My musings about the dream led me back to the evening before and how each of us was encased in our own position, perhaps with our own bible or precious text, unavailable to the other, or perhaps even to oneself, which can so occur when respectful discourse gives way to diatribe or trying to impose one's point of view upon the other. The book of ahses informed me (once again) that there is nothing of value to be gleaned from this 'bible' in these circumstances, that indeed when one is being bull-headed, thought has receded, and there really is no value other than trying to impose one's point of view on the other. The lesson from the dream for me was that once again I had let myself slip into a defensive reaction (being encased) position with my colleagues, who I feel were also defensive.
Maxine Walden: And in order to move forward the dream suggests that I stay aware of that encasedness and try to continue the discussions with a more open book, trying to listen and thus perhaps to be more listened to, because to do otherwise is not only fruitless but destroys the value of one's considered position.
Maxine Walden: Now, this dream could be read from many vantages, and I read it this way becuase I have been studying the effects of narcissistic insistence upon discourse. Another person having this very same dream would understand it differently, given what they were thinking about, how they mused about the dream, what connections they might make from it.
Aeolia Underwood: but would another have the very same dream?
Maxine Walden: So that is the dream.and my understandings .and we can discuss it if you like
Aeolia Underwood: what are the archetypal properties of your dream, do you think?
Maxine Walden: another might have a similar form or not...dream images may resemble each other and mean different things
Maxine Walden: you know I am not so impressed with archtypal properties...I know some people are, but it seems that each dream is unique
Maxine Walden: that is what has informed me
Maxine Walden: each person'a symbols are really unique, have unique meaning built from his/her own experience
Mickorod Renard: it must be unique in its meaning as other people will no doubt have diferent probs
Maxine Walden: and another person's dream symbols may appear the same but really carry different meaning to the dreamer
Maxine Walden: that is my thought Mickorod as well
Aeolia Underwood: Yes, each dream is unique - I guess that was partly my point. But there are similar features that have been interpreted similarly.
Maxine Walden: this dream was interesting to me
Maxine Walden: because I was thinking in general terms near the time of the dream
Maxine Walden: about what obscures clear thought
Maxine Walden: and argument virtually does and the dream seemed to verify that to me
Maxine Walden: so, maybe the dream was in discourse with my more conscious wondering self
Aeolia Underwood: I think this is an important feature - priming your dream to get implicit knowledge, prehaps your unconscious wondering self
Maxine Walden: and telling me about that encased state of mind
Maxine Walden: yes, the dream as inner communicator to the various aspects of the self seems very interesting to me
Mickorod Renard: you are loosing me
Mickorod Renard: encased state of mind ?
Maxine Walden: Mick, what I was thinking is that the dream, presenting the encased state of mind, the bible encased in plastic,
Aeolia Underwood: After many brainy years, I know try to get implicit knowledge to become more explicit through dreaming - Mickorod, are you ok with implicit vs explicit knowledge?
Mickorod Renard: I would like a brief expl.
Maxine Walden: which I thought represented my 'valued perhaps biblical text' so to speak which I was trying to persuade my colleagues about
Mickorod Renard: ok
Maxine Walden: Aeolia, would you like to speak about explicit vs implicit?
Mickorod Renard: I think i am ok now
Aeolia Underwood: We know things we don't know we know, had been shown in scientific studies. That's implicit knowledge. Explicit means you are conscious of it.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,thankyou
Maxine Walden: nicely put
Mickorod Renard: great
Fefonz Quan: yes, for example once i rediscovered my mastercard pin number in a dream after forgetting it in real life
Maxine Walden: I was thinking that the image of the plastic encased bible was telling me about my state of mind when I was more arguing with colleagues than listeing to them, that I was encased and not open
Maxine Walden: interesting Fefonz
Aeolia Underwood: Yes, good example of getting knowledge through dreaming
Mickorod Renard: do u have another example maxine?
Maxine Walden: the dream seems a great messenger of the implicit knowledge
Aeolia Underwood: Your conscious knowledge is enriched by the connections you made, too, the sacred text, for example
Maxine Walden: I could try to think of one, but does someone else have such a dream which was informing in the ways we are trying to think about?
Maxine Walden: yes, Aeloia, I think so, as well as telling me that inside that so-called sacred text was dusty musty 'nothing'
Mickorod Renard: I do take much information from my draeams but would prefer not to tell
Maxine Walden: So the dream was I thought telling me of how valueless that encased state of mind is, even when at the moment I was trying to so persuade my colleagues I thought I was holding a sacred text, virtually, I was in a fundamentalist state of mind
Storm Nordwind is Offline
Maxine Walden: we can continue to talk about this example perhaps if there are other questions
Aeolia Underwood: I guess you all know about famous instances of insight from dreaming, the benzene ring from the dream of a snake biting its tail, for example
Fefonz Quan: someimtes fears appear in a very realistic ways in dreams (terror, earthquake etc.)
Aeolia Underwood: And many young mothers seem to dream about losing their child in a flood or similar water situation
Aeolia Underwood: Not to mention the exam dream that persists throughout life
Mickorod Renard: never had that one
Maxine Walden: so creative connections (benzene) realistic and unconscous fears all are carried by the dream
Mickorod Renard: loosing kids yes
Fefonz Quan: which exam?
Maxine Walden: that exam dream, is that familiar to everyone?
Mickorod Renard: no
Aeolia Underwood: Any exam - can't find the room, didn't study, never signed up
Scathach Rhiadra: heard of it, never had it
Myna Maven: Oh yes. The exam dreams popped up for years.
Fefonz Quan: Ah, yes, those ones :)
Maxine Walden: Sort oflike you have to take an exam and you never went to class, that dream image
Maxine Walden: seems many of us know that dream!
Aeolia Underwood: other failure dreams, performance, don't know the lines, music, left instrument at home
Maxine Walden: what do you think it is trying to say or represent?
Mickorod Renard: I am too old to remember
Fefonz Quan: loosing the bag in a trip...
Maxine Walden: hehe, Mick
Aeolia Underwood: fear of failure?
Maxine Walden: hi, again Storm
arabella Ella: i sometimes wonder whether we could have dreams from previous lives or whether that is a possibility?
Mickorod Renard: interesting thought ara
Mickorod Renard: I often wonder who the characters are in the dreams,,where do they come from
Fefonz Quan: Maxine, these dreams are quite obviously represent fear from bad things that might happen,
Fefonz Quan: but that's not such a big help/revelation
Maxine Walden: but maybe they represent inner earthquakes, so to speak
Aeolia Underwood: How about the expanding house (etc.) dream, a repeating dream for me
Maxine Walden: have deeper levels of meaning as well as the explicit levels, Fefonz, does that seem meaningful?
Maxine Walden: Ara, don't know the expanding house dream, could you tell us?
Fefonz Quan: it might, but i wonder about the line between "explicit" dreams and more inner hints
Maxine Walden: Fefonz, you bring to mind that at least for me
arabella Ella: Maxine someone else mentioned the expanding house dream ... fraid i never heard of it myself
Aeolia Underwood: You find yourself in a house/place with many more rooms than expected, keep discovering new ones. Sometimes lots of interesting detail. This seems like a positive dream, and others say they have it.
Maxine Walden: it is important to get as much detail of the dream, each dream as possible
Fefonz Quan: many times it seems that it is just a representation of the last events of the week
Maxine Walden: but, Fefonz, that is just one level of the dream, it seems to take on the form from the outer world
Maxine Walden: but within that form, the dream expresses deeper issues, concerns, thoughts, anxieties
Scathach Rhiadra: have you any tips for remembering your dreams?
Adams Rubble is Online
Maxine Walden: Ara, what a lovely creative, discovery dream
Aeolia Underwood: And also deeper joys and desires
Myna Maven: I too occasionally have the expanding house dream, quite often associated with my memory in the dream of a sort of idealized home, and I am returning to it and rediscovering it in a sense, finding things from former visits and new rooms and things as well.
Maxine Walden: Sorry, talking to more than one at a time can be confusing to read
Aeolia Underwood: Myna, that's it exactly
Maxine Walden: lovely 'house' dreams, expressing such richness, optimism, curiousity
Mickorod Renard: tips for remembering dreams is good
Fefonz Quan: i'm sure it does represent all this things, but is it so different from daily "wondering in thoughts"?
Storm Nordwind: I have two points of view of remembering dreams, if it will help
arabella Ella: yes please
Storm Nordwind: Maxine, may I?
Mickorod Renard: pls
Scathach Rhiadra: yes please
Storm Nordwind: First of all - and this will not help you - I believe that if you're meant to remember a dream, you will, with no forcing
Maxine Walden: on, yes, Storm
Storm Nordwind: However, it is possible to force it
Storm Nordwind: And you simply train yourself...
Storm Nordwind: By taking a notebook and pen to bed
Storm Nordwind: and whenever you wake up
Storm Nordwind: note down what you remember
Storm Nordwind: But...
Storm Nordwind: there;s a problem...
Storm Nordwind: because after a while you get good at it...
Storm Nordwind: and you start remembering your dreams in great depth...
Storm Nordwind: and in reverse order! ...
Mickorod Renard: ?
Fefonz Quan: ??
Storm Nordwind: and i found it took me a full half hour to do it every morning
Mickorod Renard: /
Storm Nordwind: So i stopped.
Storm Nordwind: reverse order...
Storm Nordwind: Simply this...
Storm Nordwind: The more you remember and note down...
Storm Nordwind: the more you remember "hooks" for continuity from previous parts of dream
Storm Nordwind: and so you work backwards
Mickorod Renard: ahhhh see what u mean
Maxine Walden: the ever-expanding house
Mick orod Renard: done that too
Storm Nordwind: But your problem is the TIME it takes
Maxine Walden: time is a problem, it could occupy nearly all the day
Storm Nordwind: You really have to allow 30+ minutes
Storm Nordwind: yes indeed
Maxine Walden: remembering, noting dreams
Fefonz Quan: yeah, i have dreams that will take a day just to write...
Storm Nordwind: exactly
Maxine Walden: indeed
Adams Rubble is Online
Storm Nordwind: So I have gone instead by my first way...
Storm Nordwind: which is...
Maxine Walden: the richness of the inner recesses
Storm Nordwind: If I don't remember, I ain't supposed to remember
Maxine Walden: Interesting, Storm!
Mickorod Renard: sounds good to me
Storm Nordwind: Conversely if I do remember, it's REALLY significant!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Storm Nordwind: Saves me 30 minutes each day that way!
Maxine Walden: I also have found that if I can generally hold myself in a place of calm self respect the vital aspects of the dream seem available and not too much, nor too little
Mickorod Renard: i had a spate some years ago where i cud wake up in a dream,,and conciously be present,for short periods
Maxine Walden: as if a balance is available by holding a certain attitude toward my dreaming self
Maxine Walden: Mick, was that scary or just interesting?
Mickorod Renard: a little scary
Fefonz Quan: do you mean staing in teh dream knowing you are dreaming?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Maxine Walden: as if the immediacy of the dream took over or trapped you?< /div> 
Maxine Walden: what that reminds me of is the quality of the unconscious self vs the more conscious self
Mickorod Renard: itv was a while ago now,,but i think that i found i was able to influence it
Fefonz Quan: I've got those experiences too
Fefonz Quan: it is quite cool infact :)
Aeolia Underwood: lucid dreaming!!
Maxine Walden: that the unconscious self is raw, unmediated by thought, rather frightening in its rawness and at times we can feel trapped in it; nitemares express this to some extent
Maxine Walden: in my experience, the more conscious self, using symbols and metaphor has a different more modulated quality fo experience and is more informing, less 'trapping'
Mickorod Renard: when i first started on sl,,my first dreams had the characters typing im to each other
Storm Nordwind smiles
Fefonz Quan: maybe i told it hre before, but when i needed i developed trick to get out of a dream
Maxine Walden: and what about lucid dreaming, Aeolia
Aeolia Underwood: You do become paralyzed during REM sleep, so waking up during a nightmare may catch you in that state
Aeolia Underwood: Oh, that's what Fefonz and Mackorod are describing, isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: lol,,i have woken at the wrong time several times
Maxine Walden: yes, the barrier between conscious and unconscious self is impressive...we might wish to talk more about that maybe next time...tho can begin now, I guess
Storm Nordwind has woken in the wrong *place* a few times, but that's probably different ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: but is lucid dreaming not just being aware you are dreaming, not necessarily feeling trapped?
Mickorod Renard: grin
Fefonz Quan: :-) Storm
Aeolia Underwood: Lucid dreaming is being aware that you are dreaming and controlling it, as I understand it
Maxine Walden: grins at Storm as well; yes, Scatch that is my notion of lucid dreaming as well
Fefonz Quan: mine too
Maxine Walden: being able to control the dream is also important
Maxine Walden: in the definition as I understand
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm..maybe aeolia,,but i am talkin about at the dead of night etc
Mickorod Renard: not just daydreaming
Aeolia Underwood: Yeah, in the dead of night, not daydreaming
Mickorod Renard: ok
Maxine Walden: usually we are in the dream but not 'in control' of its outcome, but sometimes our being able to do that is an aid in mastery of the dream realm, aspects of inner life
Mickorod Renard: when i could assert some control it became interesting
Maxine Walden: yes, Mick?
Aeolia Underwood: I've tried, no luck so far. Any suggestions?
arabella Ella: do you mean control concerning doi ng what you wished Mick or control concerning outcome?
Mickorod Renard: I am frustrated i cannot do it now
Mickorod Renard: to a degree yes
Fefonz Quan: i find it quite rare
Mickorod Renard: but influence what was happening,,not change the setting
Maxine Walden: Many people never experience lucid dreaming
Aeolia Underwood: Sigh...
Storm Nordwind: I know someone who trained themselves to do lucid dreaming
Fefonz Quan: but i think the first step is knowing you are dreaming,
Maxine Walden: I am not sure I fully understand the lucid dream; I have not experienced one
Mickorod Renard: I always wanted to ask who the strangers were,,but never dared
Maxine Walden: do you, Storm, how did they train themselves?
Fefonz Quan: strangers?
Aeolia Underwood: Well, Mickenrod, you CAN ask who they are when you wake up and remember
Storm Nordwind: First they found they could do it occasioanlly...
Storm Nordwind: and then they found they could use a trigger
Myna Maven: Maxine, you become aware you are dreaming, but are able to stay in it and control certain aspects of it.
Storm Nordwind: The trigger they used was to notice the palm of their hand
Storm Nordwind: If they saw that in a dream they would become conscious of dreaming within the dream
Mickorod Renard: i remember I used a trigger,,but cant remember what it was
Storm Nordwind: They chose the trigger and trained themselves
Maxine Walden: I see, very interesting
Storm Nordwind: It's a well documented technique apparently
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Maxine Walden: ah!
Fefonz Quan: what's so special with the palm of the hand?
Mickorod Renard: well it seems like i used to do something odd then
arabella Ella: I am not sure i understood that Storm could you please explain a bit more detail?
Storm Nordwind: Nothing. It's just part of them that would be likely to see in a dream. Just their own choice
Fefonz Quan: ok
Storm Nordwind: Basically what they did was this...
Mickorod Renard: i remember i wud remind myself before going off to sleep
Storm Nordwind: Beforehand they told themseleves...
Mickorod Renard: snap
Storm Nordwind: that if they saw a particular object...
Storm Nordwind: in their dream...
Storm Nordwind: they would realise they were dreaming
Storm Nordwind: And they they would assert control within the dream
Storm Nordwind: It wasn't foolproof
Storm Nordwind: but it worked sometimes
Maxine Walden: sort of a kind of self hypnosis perhaps
arabella Ella: is that because you then shift to a different level of consciousness?
arabella Ella: like moving towards the alfa state?
Storm Nordwind: It was certainly different!
Storm Nordwind: But I have no electronics to analyse that
Mickorod Renard: I found it was frustrating,,because i tried to get friends to do the same,,and we would always miss each other on the night
Storm Nordwind: It was my ex-wife by the way!
Storm Nordwind: She was a PhD linguist
Maxine Walden: ah, very interesting.
Storm Nordwind: So she approached it is a very analytical way
Maxine Walden: Exploring her dream from an analytic approach in some way perhaps
Mickorod Renard: I will try and do it again for future weeks
Maxine Walden: I see the time, and we should stop for now
Storm Nordwind: I think she was after experimenting with control, rather than exploring the dreams themselves
Maxine Walden: I see!!
Fefonz Quan: yeah, me too, the problem is that if i see my palm in RL, will i think i'm in a dream ? :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Aeolia Underwood: This was great - I usually work at this hour, had a snow day. Thanks. I'll look for my palm!
Mickorod Renard: I used to dream so much i would wake up exhauseted
Maxine Walden: Perhaps we need to stop for now, maybe we could explore that barrier between conscious and unconscious regions next time, where the dream work may occur
Fefonz Quan: (me too =- ytry to do it)
Mickorod Renard: ok
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Maxine for hosting the workshop :)
Maxine Walden: but also pay attention to our dreaming selves; I find that my dreams often inform me after these sessions
Mickorod Renard: thankyou maxine
Adams Rubble: Yes, thank you :)
Maxine Walden: thanks everyone
Myna Maven: Thank you Maxine.
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Maxine :)
Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Maxine:)
Aeolia Underwood: :), thanks. Bye
arabella Ella: thanks Maxine
Adams Rubble: bye all :)
Maxine Walden: bye all
Rodney Handrick: thanks
Storm Nordwind waves

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