Dream Workshop #1 2009.01.20 - The Kira Institute
Starting from a scientific world view - we ask the question, what else is true
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Dream Workshop #1 2009.01.20

Maxine Walden: This group is going to be on dreams and dreaming and I see we maybe should start? Not sure if I should begin but I could well do
arabella Ella: hiya Maxine ... yes please!
Maxine Walden: Maybe I could just do a little introduction.
Roger Amdahl: Hello everybodies 
smoky Ziplon: hello
Rodney Handrick: Hi Roger
Maxine Walden: My understanding is that there are many ways
to view dreams and the dreaming process
Rodney Handrick: Who is the moderator?
Maxine Walden: Storm has just reminded me that we will log
this so that he is turning on the on air sign
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, we could use a moderator. Who would
like to be?
Roger Amdahl: I have no sound...is this on voice ?
Maxine Walden: Roger, this will be text
Roger Amdahl: okies
Roger Amdahl: *turning speakers off ..:))
Maxine Walden: and we take the chatlog for posting. Is
everyone aware of that?
arabella Ella: yes
Roger Amdahl: yep
Tenk Kidd: Yes
Fefonz Quan: yep
Mickorod Renard: yep
Rodney Handrick: No, I wasn't aware of chat logs
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Please click the ON AIR sign Rodney
Rodney Handrick: ok
Maxine Walden: Maybe I should introduce myself:
Anja Amaterasu: Hi all
Maxine Walden: I am a psychoanalyst in RL and have studied one way to think about dreams for several decades
Maxine Walden: There are many ways to think about the psyche and admittedly my view is just one.
Maxine Walden: I am more interested in the view of dreams as they relate to emotional experiences than I am in the neurobiology
Maxine Walden: so my perspective would come from the emotional and experiential view
Maxine Walden: I find that dreams seem to display an
extraordinary inner intelligence
Maxine Walden: in that they seem to organize the sensory
experience of the day, input from inner and outer sources
CinturaTorrente Boa: well freud said that in 1900
Maxine Walden: and they, the dreams, sem to be problem
solvers, and indeed messengers of a sort
Maxine Walden: indeed, Cintura.
CinturaTorrente Boa: it is not a huge news
Wol Euler: shush.
Maxine Walden: Maybe it won't seem like news, but maybe it
will be of interest to some
CinturaTorrente Boa: sure
CinturaTorrente Boa: excuse my interruption
Maxine Walden: And it seems that we are dreaming all the
time, waking as well as sleeping, that this processing is rather constant
Maxine Walden: and necessary for the sorting out of experience for the conscious as well as the unconscious regions of the mind
Andrej Babenco: pre-sleeping vision
Alfred Kelberry: hey guys :)
Rodney Handrick: Hi Al
CinturaTorrente Boa: ipnagogic allucination
Roger Amdahl: aww....have to go RL ( unexpected) ...bye all
Alfred Kelberry: maxine the dream expert :)
Maxine Walden: Tell you what, all, we don't have a moderator, so I am going to give my little intro and then be open to comments;hope that is OK
Maxine Walden: One of the most interesting aspects of the dreaming process for me
Maxine Walden: is the meaning-making function of the dream.
Rodney Handrick: That's ok with me...
Alfred Kelberry: dream-reading?
Maxine Walden: By that I mean that the dreaming process seems to transform raw experience
Maxine Walden: raw sensory experience into potential meaning...or make that experience potentially thinkable
Alfred Kelberry purrs at tenk :)
Maxine Walden: and that is rather extraordinary because it really is a transformation which allows thought and meaning to accrue
Maxine Walden: And as problem solver: we all probably know about 'needing to sleep' on something;
Maxine Walden: that probably is a sorting, sifting function.
Maxine Walden: One famouse problem solved was Kekule back in the 1860s whose dream of the snake eating its tail gave him the idea
Aurora Kitaj: are we unable to do this in a conscious state?
Maxine Walden: that the banzene was a 'circle' in shape
Maxine Walden: Aurora, I think we do not have as deep access to our unconscious creative potential via our conscious minds
Alfred Kelberry: maxine, mendeleev
Maxine Walden: The dream seems to have special access at the boundary between conscious and unconscious regions
Alfred Kelberry: presumably saw his periodic table in sleep
Maxine Walden: And I find this interesting: the notion of a semi=permeable membrane between conscious function
Maxine Walden: and unconscious functioning,
arabella Ella: do you mean the alfa state between sleep and waking as the membrane Maxine?
Maxine Walden: a quasi barrier which protects the conscious mind from too much raw 'stuff
Maxine Walden: that is unprocessed sensory experience which would be disorganizing to our waking selves
Maxine Walden: but also a membrane which protects the timelessness, the cosmic, the deeper more chaotic/creative unconscious
Maxine Walden: from being overly exposed to surface elements. Keeps a kind of order between the two world, the dreaming process
Maxine Walden: may function at this boundary or membrane, to perform its functions as organizer, problem solver, messenger.
Maxine Walden: Now I could give an example of a dream, one I offered a few weeks ago, with how I understodd it, or we could open to questions
Maxine Walden: ah, one other thing to mention first
Maxine Walden: How to foster our dreaming or remember our dreams:
Maxine Walden: my sense is that our trying to be reflective of our inner functions,
Maxine Walden: paying attention as perhaps a mothering person does to her small child when she observes and gives meaning to an experience
Aurora Kitaj: clearly the dream function serves an important purpose in hellping us to function. But there remains the issue of how to explain scary dreams to small children who cannot forget them
CinturaTorrente Boa: i'm a composer, what about the connection with onirico (dream state) and the musical creative function, miss maxine.
Aurora Kitaj: nightmares
Maxine Walden: that the child cannot know for itself -- this reverie function, naming and giving meaning seems to be what the dream function is really doing
Maxine Walden: and I think we can foster that function by setting the stage for reflective attention or reverie to our inner processes
Alfred Kelberry: aurora has an on hand experience i can tell :)
Maxine Walden: OK, open to questions, let's see who has asked some already
Mickorod Renard: maxine, are there not diferent types of dreams,,like for example profound dreams,,that seem to be very very important, and almost or maybe visionary?
arabella Ella: I think it would be great to first hear your dream example Maxine please?
Fefonz Quan votes for example too
Maxine Walden: lets see, scary dreams, the musical creative function, and the different 'types' or depths of dreams, all really valuable points
Mickorod Renard: I am happy for an example
Alfred Kelberry: ouch, tenk is not happy :)
Rodney Handrick: And what about dreams that are so vivid that your remember it as if you actually experienced it in your conscious state?
Maxine Walden: yes, and the vivid dream as if 'it really happened'.
Alfred Kelberry: rodney, sometimes even taste included
Rodney Handrick: yes
Alfred Kelberry: like ice-cream
Maxine Walden: Why don't I try to briefly address a couple of these questions:
Alfred Kelberry: that was unusual
Rodney Handrick: Really Alfred...that is unusual
Maxine Walden: the scary dreams of the child may be when the dreaming function is not developed sufficiently in the young child
Mickorod Renard: and those the give visions of unrelated events that happen later in rl
Maxine Walden: to encompass the intensity of the usually inner fear/conflict. That function develops 'holding capacity' as one grows in terms of metabolizing intense affect to allow the sleeper to
remain asleep as Freud observed
Alfred Kelberry: maxine, as if his membranes don't function properly?
Maxine Walden: So the nitemares of young child may usefully be thought of as not quite doing their job.
Maxine Walden: yes, as if the membrane has been insufficient, good way to put it
Alfred Kelberry: i see
Maxine Walden: and the mothering person, does some of that function then for the child
Fefonz Quan: are they differnt than those of adults?
Maxine Walden: And the so vivid dream may be a bit of the same thing, barrier not quite sufficient for disguise/metabolizing to occur
arabella Ella: yes, what about nightmares which adults have?
Tenk Kidd: Maxine, how long are the periods of 'dreaming' -somtimes I experience a dream that I recall being much longer than the time I was asleep. Does a sense of time get scrambled in dreaming?
Alfred Kelberry: it sure does for me
Maxine Walden: Adults' nitemares, may be again that insufficient barrier and dreamwork, but also it may be that the nitemare is trying to tell us something
Maxine Walden: a messenger of a sort; guess I have two thoughts about that
Andrej Babenco: this is sure
Maxine Walden: one is the insufficient barrier which needs conscious thought, often help from a trusted friend
Maxine Walden: but another thought is that sometimes we need a two by four to get our attention
Alfred Kelberry: maxine, they could do the same to a child -be a message :)
Fefonz Quan: two by four?
Maxine Walden: toward something, a conflict, inattention, something we may not be paying sufficient attention to
Mickorod Renard: a big stick
Alfred Kelberry: which puts membrane "development" under
question :)
Maxine Walden: Fefonz, sorry, a big stick
arabella Ella: two by four?
Maxine Walden: yes, Alfred, I think that membrane development is a relative thing
Alfred Kelberry: "2 by 2, hands in blue" :)
Maxine Walden: but we all have situations of intensity that probably would strain the average 'membrane' function
Flight Band: All Go
Alfred Kelberry: is this membrane idea your concept?
Maxine Walden: we had a question from a composer, Cintura, would you mention it again?
Alfred Kelberry: yes.. music in a dream
Maxine Walden: no, Alf, it is a concept of Wilfred Bion, a British psychoanalyst of some note
CinturaTorrente Boa: ok
CinturaTorrente Boa: well
CinturaTorrente Boa: i'm an italian composer that studied 4 year psicology
Alfred Kelberry: hi, vik :)
CinturaTorrente Boa: i read all that we need
CinturaTorrente Boa: freud
CinturaTorrente Boa: jung
CinturaTorrente Boa: ferencsi
CinturaTorrente Boa: lacan
CinturaTorrente Boa: reic
CinturaTorrente Boa: eccetra
Maxine Walden: wonderful authors, yes
CinturaTorrente Boa: (reich)
CinturaTorrente Boa: but
CinturaTorrente Boa: i have many, many objection that unfortunately i can't explain so good in english
CinturaTorrente Boa: unless you speak italian
CinturaTorrente Boa: anyway
Alfred Kelberry: give it a try, boa :)
Mickorod Renard: u doing well
CinturaTorrente Boa: call me torrente
CinturaTorrente Boa: anyway
Alfred Kelberry: ah, sorry, torrente :)
arabella Ella: I could translate italian to english if you
need any help
Maxine Walden: wonderful, ara
CinturaTorrente Boa: i think that verbal thought and musical thoughts are our contemporary dichotomy
CinturaTorrente Boa: and that the musical thought is the real way to undersytand the unconsciousness
Andrej Babenco: as feeling ??
Fefonz Quan: over the barrier of words...
CinturaTorrente Boa: so one day i quit with study of psicology
CinturaTorrente Boa: and i started to thinking musically
CinturaTorrente Boa: and i can tell to you all
CinturaTorrente Boa: that the real secret
Andrej Babenco: yes..music is mathematic plus feeling...
CinturaTorrente Boa: that Freud lacan and company wrote
CinturaTorrente Boa: are ALL in the musical thought.
Andrej Babenco: a great mix
CinturaTorrente Boa: stop for now
CinturaTorrente Boa: e se volete parlo italian
Maxine Walden: they did not take into account, those authors, the impact of the mother's voice, that music, on the developing fetus
Andrej Babenco: but in a mature mind ??
arabella Ella: Torrente I dont think many people would understand italian
Maxine Walden: and the subsequent melodic nature of her communications to her child, the music, not the words
Alfred Kelberry: freud thought in terms of music? huh?
CinturaTorrente Boa: that's the main verbal problem!!!!!
Maxine Walden: I think Freud was not as in touch with music as with words, I believe, but you know I am not an expert in that
CinturaTorrente Boa: the musical thought is universal even into the dream
Maxine Walden: but I do know that autistic like children who cannot manage to understand the spoken word understand that same word sung
CinturaTorrente Boa: freud in "psicopatologia della vita quotidiana" wrote a lot of lapsus
Aurora Kitaj: really?
Maxine Walden: lapsus?
CinturaTorrente Boa: yes because
Aurora Kitaj: Maxine that is very interesting
Maxine Walden: I thought so as well, Aurora
arabella Ella: he means 'psychopathology of the everyday life'
arabella Ella: lapsus - as in forgetting
CinturaTorrente Boa: the verbal thought is a limitated way to thinking musically
CinturaTorrente Boa: even in the dream
Aurora Kitaj: Autistic children wiht Aperges' syndrome can be very musically gifted
Maxine Walden: thanks, Ara
CinturaTorrente Boa: we think with words
Maxine Walden: a kind of thinking, but not emotional thought
CinturaTorrente Boa: ok maxine but
Aurora Kitaj: and they can be mathematically gifted, which supports Torrente's ideas of the link between maths and music
CinturaTorrente Boa: i don't wanna bother you
CinturaTorrente Boa: but
Maxine Walden: and that is where the dream is so creative, as is music, perhaps, taking in the emotions
CinturaTorrente Boa: let me say one thing
Maxine Walden: yes, please
CinturaTorrente Boa: so..
Andrej Babenco: hey !! music is not only mats !!!!
Aurora Kitaj: understood
Aurora Kitaj: it's feeling
Aurora Kitaj: too
Andrej Babenco: also...
CinturaTorrente Boa: you psicoanalist, psicologist, believe that the "emotion" is a kind of second nature to think
CinturaTorrente Boa: well, think is UNTRUE
CinturaTorrente Boa: not rational
CinturaTorrente Boa: if we cant explain the emotional thought
CinturaTorrente Boa: is because we miss the words!
CinturaTorrente Boa: i mean
CinturaTorrente Boa: and not "vice-versa)
Maxine Walden: the emotional 'thought' seems to link with previous emotional experience, something that words do not necessarily do
Andrej Babenco: yes, and specially here in SL...happen..
Aurora Kitaj: autistic people can have difficulties with
emotion, and emphathy
CinturaTorrente Boa: the music can become clearly what the
emotion are
CinturaTorrente Boa: and that is a superior thing, respect
all kind of "RATIONAL" thought
CinturaTorrente Boa: stop
Alfred Kelberry: music not only can, but it does, all the time
CinturaTorrente Boa: thank you
CinturaTorrente Boa: that i wanted to say
Andrej Babenco: why SL is full of dance club ??
Fefonz Quan: Yet music is also a kind of language,
CinturaTorrente Boa: and sorry again for my bad english
Maxine Walden: and for me the notion of linking the experience of music with the early in utero experience of the mother's voice is interesting a s alink with emotions
Fefonz Quan: and can differ by culture
Andrej Babenco: becouse music and empaty are correlated..
Maxine Walden: not sure I would rank hierarchically but emotional/musical is perhaps more encompassing than 'rational' thought, more
Maxine Walden: encompassing of the whole of human experience
Maxine Walden: music probably reaches far down into our evolutionary past
Andrej Babenco: yes
Maxine Walden: as each of us probably can attest when we feel moved by music
arabella Ella: yes and thre are some things which are difficult to be expressed in words or rationally for that matter
Alfred Kelberry: i didn't get the connection between fred's work and music, though
Alfred Kelberry: *freud
Tenk Kidd: I sometimes exlerience having a 'thought' that I later find myself structuring it with words or images. Maybe dreaming is the same sort of process without conscious constraint?
Aurora Kitaj: is empathy the opposite of rationality?
CinturaTorrente Boa: Freud doesn' enjoy any music
Maxine Walden: not sure I can help out there, Alf, my notion is that Freud was more into the rational word than the musical
Andrej Babenco: no !!!
Andrej Babenco: this is a stupid thiing to say
Maxine Walden: Tenk, yes, I would agree
CinturaTorrente Boa: he wrote that many times
Alfred Kelberry: torrente, does it mean his ideas are senseless?
Maxine Walden: for me empathy is more encompassing than rationality
CinturaTorrente Boa: of course not
CinturaTorrente Boa: i loved freud
CinturaTorrente Boa: but
CinturaTorrente Boa: like a verbal thinker
Andrej Babenco: i love Jung
CinturaTorrente Boa: a genial verbal thinker
Storm Nordwind notices that the hour is almost up
arabella Ella: you mean Freud is so rational his rationality is limiting his views?
Alfred Kelberry ignores time
Maxine Walden: yes, Storm, thanks for reminding us of the time
Mickorod Renard: are we saying that the prossesing power is greater in a dream state than whilst awake?
arabella Ella: Maxine ... I would love to hear your example before the session is over please?
Maxine Walden: This workshop is scheduled for the next three weeks at this time.
CinturaTorrente Boa: but also that is UNTRUE
CinturaTorrente Boa: he was so smart to let believe people that people could feeling better with the analisys
CinturaTorrente Boa: think at the problem of tranfert
CinturaTorrente Boa: transfert
Maxine Walden: You know, the dream example would take maybe 10 minutes to mention and offer my understanding; I would be
Maxine Walden: happy to begin the next session with that dream and my understanding of it
CinturaTorrente Boa: people needs to verbalize their emotion but..
Alfred Kelberry: ara, it's funny. this discussion about freud brings us back to emperical approach (freud) vs pheno (music) :)
Andrej Babenco: need talent fordo that
arabella Ella would love to hear Maxine's experience today if possible ... and feels others may wish this too
CinturaTorrente Boa: the only way to get an healthy mind is not the verbalization of the world
CinturaTorrente Boa: like we are doing right now
arabella Ella: yes Alfred it certainly does ... the rational versus the phenomenal or felt experience somehow
Maxine Walden: Maybe we should stop for now , even though our thoughts could go on and on, which is part of what's fun in SL.
Alfred Kelberry: torrente, that's kind of.. too radical :)
Mickorod Renard: I feel what you are saying Cintura
Maxine Walden: I have to go in about 3 minutes anyway and could not do justice to the dream and its discussion in that time.
CinturaTorrente Boa: but is to think the world in a musical way, for the highest problem
Alfred Kelberry: but i get the idea, too
Maxine Walden: I promise to start the next session with the dream
CinturaTorrente Boa: and for the HUMAN problem ok
CinturaTorrente Boa: we have the verbal thought
Wol Euler applauds. Thank you Maxine, that was very interseting.
Maxine Walden: I will need to leave now, and thanks everyone for coming
arabella Ella: ok Maxine I understand ... just hope i can make it next time ... smile
Mickorod Renard: bye maxine ty
Aurora Kitaj: Thanks Maxine
Aurora Kitaj: fab
CinturaTorrente Boa: you're welcome
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Maxine. See you next week same time!
Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Maxine:0
arabella Ella: thanks Maxine
Alfred Kelberry: actually, we speak in words, but not think in them
Mickorod Renard: thankyou cintura too
Fefonz Quan: Bye maxine
Maxine Walden: bye all
CinturaTorrente Boa: and you all can listen my music and read my verbal thought about that.
Tenk Kidd: Thanks Maxine, very interesting.
Alfred Kelberry: bye, maxine, thank you for this interesting discussion.

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