2009.01.09 Phenomenology Workshop #4 - The Kira Institute
Starting from a scientific world view - we ask the question, what else is true
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2009.01.09 Phenomenology Workshop #4

Pema Pera: Welcome everybody to the Kira Phenomenology Workshop!
Pema Pera: We gather here once a week
Pema Pera: And thanks to Alfred, we now have a wiki: http://pheno.wik.is/
Pema Pera: Note that our conversations are logged
Pema Pera: so by stayed here, you give us permission to put the conversation here on the web on our web site and wiki
Pema Pera: Today we have it easy: a few days ago we announced a mid-winter break from all our hard work of sending in reports of our explorations
Kos Hallard: lol
Pema Pera: The reason is that we have asked everybody to move their previous reports from the google group to the wiki
Pema Pera: where it will be far easier to find and read and comment on them
Pema Pera: Does anybody have any questions, comments, suggestions, other ideas?
Andrej Babenco: i am new.....wiki url ???
Pema Pera: http://pheno.wik.is/
Andrej Babenco: ty
Kore Jardberg: What is your definition of phenomenology?
Pema Pera: I don't know of a simple definition . . . .
Pema Pera: starting with phenomena is one way to begin to do so
Kore Jardberg: Sure, but I read the previous logs on the website and it seems you have a different one than other authors
Pema Pera: it's a bit like asking "what is the definition of mathematics"
Pema Pera: oh, sure, I have my own slant
Pema Pera: and I hope that everybody has their own
Pema Pera: and I'd love to hear from others, of course
Pema Pera: what did strike you as the main difference?
Kore Jardberg: Honestly I didn't understand the difference, so I just naively asked for yours so we can talk about the same thing
Kore Jardberg: I don't know much about phenomenology except Wikipedia, but if it's enough forget about my question
Pema Pera: the main difference between me and phenomenologists is that most of the latter that I know seem to focus on reading and rereading what the masters of the last hundred years have written -- I prefer to move on and do phenomenology
Pema Pera: physicists don't read Newton, they apply his equations and ideas
Andrej Babenco: Phenomenology (philosophy) which focuses on the work and followers of Edmund Husserl (April 8, 1859 – April 26, 1938)
Pema Pera: I'm trying to do the same with Husserl
No room to sit here, try another spot.
Kore Jardberg: "Pema Pera: physicists don't read Newton" this is so true! The same for biologist and Darwin by the way
Kos Hallard: I disagree
Andrej Babenco: yes and Wagner too
TR Amat: Fun link: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/
Kore Jardberg: Kos: on what?
Kos Hallard: when they apply newtons laws that the equivelent of reading him!
Andrej Babenco: this is not corect..
Kos Hallard: and when they do they are aware that newton wrote them
Kore Jardberg: They don't understand the state of mind Newton has at the time though, and they probably didn't read anything about his theological works
Andrej Babenco: if u never read newton...
Wester Kiranov: darwin is a lot easier to read than newton, and more directly relevant
genesis Zhangsun: Should we get started?
TR Amat: The history of science is a fascinating subject.
Kos Hallard: have you ever applied his laws in a calculation?
Kore Jardberg: they read about the conclusions of his work in a specific domain, not the process of thought
genesis Zhangsun: Or have we done that?
Kos Hallard: oh, that not true
Kore Jardberg: Kos: sure, why?
Pema Pera: well, I think we have
Kore Jardberg: Ok
Kos Hallard: the process of his thought was that before publishing his laws 20 years went by
Maxine Walden: one of the things I think we try to do here is not to talk about what others have written but to apply our own experience, refer to that and listen to one another's experience
Kos Hallard: the question is why
Pema Pera: exactly, Maxine
Kos Hallard: Ok I applied Newtons laws in a caluculation 5 hours ago
Maxine Walden: and I would hope that our focus on such, our various experiences, can continue to be our focus
Andrej Babenco: Newton law in SL....applications ??
Pema Pera: I agree, Maxine
Kos Hallard: No in RL
Pema Pera: shall we return to our experiments, our explorations?
Kos Hallard: newton doesn't exist in SL
Wester Kiranov: i agree with maxine too
Andrej Babenco: ok, but here..now ??
Andrej Babenco: why u are sit ??
Maxine Walden: yes, let's do
Pema Pera: Maxine, do you have any comments on our exploration, so far?
Maxine Walden: I have had lots of thoughts about the experiences of reversing the roles of subject and object, and perhaps
Maxine Walden: because I am also thinking about what 'experience' is hard-wired I do think of various aspects of our evolutionary past is represented in the various experiences
Maxine Walden: such as: when I am the subject, my focus is direct and like the dominant one, whereas when I am reversing the roles I feel much less dominant, more unified with all around me; that is fascinating to me
Kore Jardberg: Did you try to place your consciousness into the object?
Maxine Walden: at first I did try to project my consciousness into the object, Kore, but with Pema's suggestion realized that was/is more projecting my subjectivity, not allowing mysel to become the object.
Maxine Walden: It seems very interesting that it is so difficult to 'become' the object, the one seen; it seems to go against much of what may be hard-wired
Maxine Walden: but what have others been experiencing?
genesis Zhangsun: I have found the explorations challenging too Max
genesis Zhangsun: I am wondering if there is something I am completely missing
Maxine Walden: oh, gen?
genesis Zhangsun: everything that I am doing I find is just an idea of the "subject/object" reversal
genesis Zhangsun: not an actual reversal
genesis Zhangsun: I have an easier time seeing myself and the object as two objects
genesis Zhangsun: but difficult for me to switch roles
Storm Nordwind: I think that's a valuable impression gen
genesis Zhangsun: easier to put myself on the same level as the object but difficult to actualy change my whole notion of what it would be to be another subject
genesis Zhangsun: especially one that is not human
TR Amat: Sorry, SL crashes that require a re-boot to fix...
Roger Amdahl: Hello everybody
Andrej Babenco: did u try to change your avatar ??
Caledonia Heron: maybe you don't have to "be" the other object, more you see yourself _from_ the other object
Roger Amdahl: (( not on voice ?))
Storm Nordwind: When you become an object, you no longer control who, or what, or even how many, become the subject.
Caledonia Heron: ((nope))
Kore Jardberg: Can I say something about an experience of thought I made?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Cal but then I find myself again running into a mere idea of beeing seen
genesis Zhangsun: yes Kore sure
Kore Jardberg: Ok, I heard about the third eye thing, and I tried to actually see from another part of my body, like my forehead, or even outside my body,
Kos Hallard: did you succeed?
Kore Jardberg: like one meter above my head, and a curious phenomena happened, I was able to see pictures, like when I close my eyes, but strikingly as realistic as a photography
Kore Jardberg: I don't believe in astral journey, but the pictures were perfect, very fine textures and I could watch in the scene it was stable, not like regular imagination
TR Amat: Like lucid dreaming?
Storm Nordwind: Like lucid dreaming
Kore Jardberg: (that's it, I don't have explanation for that except that it seems that it starts oniric process without sleeping)
Kore Jardberg: Probably, I don't know of this
Kore Jardberg: No!
Kore Jardberg: Actually no!
Kore Jardberg: Lucid dreaming is the opposite
Andrej Babenco: pre-sleeping visions...Jung docet
Kore Jardberg: It's taking over dreams during sleep
Pema Pera: The main approach here is to start with our experiences, staying as close to the normal way of looking at things -- there may be many ways to try to experiment with, or try to induce, other ways of using our mind, but what I find the most interesting challenge is to stay with normal experience, and see how we can find new degrees of freedom there
Kore Jardberg: Andrej: probably but without any sign of sleepness
Pema Pera: and it is surprisingly hard to try to let yourself be passive, like an object
Pema Pera: as Gen and Maxine mentioned
Storm Nordwind: I disagree Pema
Storm Nordwind: I think it's not so hard
Storm Nordwind: What is hard...
Kore Jardberg: What about television watching?
Pema Pera: for you perhaps not hard, Storm
Storm Nordwind: ...is to try and control what becomes the subject
genesis Zhangsun: YES!!!
Andrej Babenco: OMG!!! the slaim coming out from your tv-set...(F.Zappa)
TR Amat: If the feedback systems between actions and perceptions operate in the way some researchers suggest they may have a lot to do with the sense of self. Hence passive perception may produce some interesting effects.
genesis Zhangsun: Pema I do think it is is not easy to put aside myself as the subject but even more impossible for me to then turn around and to wear the subjective view of a wall lets say
Pema Pera: oh yes, I agree
Caledonia Heron: consider that everything becomes a subject and that the difference between subject and object is negligible
genesis Zhangsun: I hear you Cal...
Pema Pera: so the exercise we focused on, as Maxine said, is to not try to become any subject
genesis Zhangsun: for me that is object-object
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps they are teh same thing?
Pema Pera: just let yourself me seen, as if you were an object
Pema Pera: is that what was difficult too, Gen?
genesis Zhangsun: I either see me and the object as two parts of a whole and those "no eyes"
genesis Zhangsun: or "all eyes"
genesis Zhangsun: but not another set of "eyes"
genesis Zhangsun: does that make sense?
Caledonia Heron: they're assigned designations, it's possible that we are learning to release those designations by turning them around, trying different ways, a range of motion
Storm Nordwind: Perfect sense gen
genesis Zhangsun: *thus no eyes
genesis Zhangsun: not *those
Samuel Okelly: isnt there an innate futilty in trying to escape what we are?
Pema Pera: it is not about escaping but finding other degrees of freedom
genesis Zhangsun: interesting question Samuel...you think this is about escape?
Pema Pera: looking in fresh ways
Storm Nordwind: You mean like beings that can only walk rather than fly Samuel?
Wester Kiranov: we aren't trying to escape what we are, we are trying to see more clearly
TR Amat: Getting a wider understanding of the possibilities of perception?
Andrej Babenco: yes...the third person of an avatar
Samuel Okelly: maybe a poor choice of words but it seems at the very very least it involves an attempt at becoming "the other"
genesis Zhangsun: yes I see your point Samuel
Andrej Babenco: in truth..all here..are a diferent thing
genesis Zhangsun: and meanwhile finding that it is next to impossible?
Pema Pera: Samuel, that is an important point!
Alfred Kelberry: hey guys!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Alfred!
Pema Pera: and we have been trying to explore a variation in which we exactly did not do that
Wol Euler: hello alfred.
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, i'm just for a few minutes
Pema Pera: not trying to be the other, but rather staying ourselves
Pema Pera: but more like an object
Pema Pera: letting ourselves be seen, rather than trying to see actively like a subject
Roger Amdahl: like me...sitting, not typing ?
Mickorod Renard: could we not just pretend to be a statue,,like as in stone?
Alfred Kelberry: i wanted to say that i looked into adding reports issue and there's going to be an easier way to do it. next week, i hope.
Roger Amdahl: wandering what it is all about
Roger Amdahl: *wondering
TR Amat: Some interesting changes in perception can occur on the edge of sleep, for example.
Andrej Babenco: yes !!
Caledonia Heron: like when your av is in mousview, you are seeing from your av yet you're still located at you, in your chair
Alfred Kelberry: is there any more agenda i can answer, pema?
Pema Pera: not right now, Alf
Maxine Walden: Alf, I am going to be very interested in easier reports, thanks for that
Alfred Kelberry: alright
genesis Zhangsun: What I have found quite interesting in my explorations is not the actual object/subject switching but rather what it does in changing my perception
Alfred Kelberry: sorry folks. busy here, have to go now.
genesis Zhangsun: of my body awareness
Maxine Walden: thanks Alf
genesis Zhangsun: my state of being
Alfred Kelberry: you have fun and enjoy the weekend! :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye Alfred!
Wol Euler: you too, alf!
genesis Zhangsun: the space between me and the object
Mickorod Renard: can you say more gen?
Maxine Walden: decentering your experience to some extent, gen?
genesis Zhangsun: yes I just notice that while I am trying so hard to "switch" I am noticing in a very fine way my body reactions, my thoughts arising
genesis Zhangsun: and then tuning them down
Aurora Kitaj: bye Alfred
genesis Zhangsun: this week trying not try so hard
genesis Zhangsun: finding the right amount of presence
genesis Zhangsun: to be with the object
genesis Zhangsun: *trying not to try
TR Amat: There may be some parallels with the sort of training you are supposed to achieve in some varieties of meditation.
Maxine Walden: trying to get your 'trying' out of the way?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Maxine
genesis Zhangsun: and when I do that then I find a deep sense stillness
genesis Zhangsun: and feel relaxed
genesis Zhangsun: but nothing remarkable what I "expect" to happen is happening
genesis Zhangsun: but something interesting nonetheless
Maxine Walden: I experience that as well, gen, to become aware of all the 'noise' in 'trying' which then makes it easier to let it go
genesis Zhangsun: *not happening
Mickorod Renard: I think i have felt that too
Pema Pera: letting go is very hard -- it is a kind of "untraining" rather than training
TR Amat: I've tried a number of different meditation techniques and they all seem to produce slightly different perceptions of the relationship between you and your surroundings.
genesis Zhangsun: yes TR?
Andrej Babenco: bravo TR !
TR Amat: Some produce a sort of combined distancing effect and a seeming nearness to objects.
Mickorod Renard: TR, do you have any suggestions to help us achieve an interesting outcome?
TR Amat: The objects become crystal clear, but somehow lacking in associations.
TR Amat: Most of the methods involve thigs like focussing on breathing, an expernal object like a picture (mandala), a form of movement like a dance or martial art kata (mudra), or a repeated sound (mantra).
Mickorod Renard: ty
TR Amat: They all seem aimed at an effect like fatigueing normal attention.
TR Amat: So some different sort of perception occurs.
Andrej Babenco: yes..and what about here in SL ??
Pema Pera: we often filter most of the phenomena available, leaving a small subset tuned for daily life applications -- phenomenology is trying to look at all phenomena, including the ones that are normally filtered out
Pema Pera: not trying to force new experiences of a different kind
Pema Pera: although of course the line between them is fine
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I see your point pema
Pema Pera: and in fact old overlooked experiences may feel very new
Pema Pera: but in our case of s/o reversal
Pema Pera: subject/object reversal
Pema Pera: trying to see like a spoon would be forcing
TR Amat: I've difficulty using the various meditation techniques I'm trained in with SL. Possibly I just need more practice. SL just doesn't seem 'real' enough to properly focus on?
Pema Pera: trying to let youself be seen by a spoon is far more natural
Mickorod Renard: here,,we are talking about out of body experience then Pema?
Pema Pera: what we do, TR, is try our explorations in RL
Pema Pera: and talk about it here in SL
Pema Pera: no, Mick
Pema Pera: you can happily stay in your body
Caledonia Heron: lol
Pema Pera: and still let yourself be seen
TR Amat: I dd experiment a bit with SL as well, to see what happened. :)
Pema Pera: the chance is almost more profound
Pema Pera: giving up the lead role of the subject is HARD
Mickorod Renard: but its about removing the sensations of bodily noise?
Pema Pera: it is not about trying to obtain anything in particular
TR Amat: In might experience most bodily noise can be negated by paying careful attention to it.
Pema Pera: the idea is to just sit with the notion "now I'll try to be seen, rather than to focus on seeing"
TR Amat: In my*
Pema Pera: and then to report what happens
Pema Pera: on the wiki we are accumulating reports
Samuel Okelly: is it a true "reversal" of subject / object or more a question of the subject remaining the subject however within a different context?
TR Amat: Pain for example can be considered to be your body saying "pay attention to this", and when you crefully do, a lot of non-chronic pain just seems to fade away.
Pema Pera: Samuel, it is just trying to deal with phenomena in a somewhat different way, nothing absolute or "true", just very gentle
You decline Catherine House, SupportforHealing (203, 206, 30) from A group member named Extropia DaSilva.
Mickorod Renard: what sort of things might we have lost percieving in our everyday state?
Samuel Okelly: i agree pema but i am questioning whether or not the "difference" represenst a true change
Mickorod Renard: have you any sugestions pema?
TR Amat: Our normal perception has arguably evolved out of the requirements of survival in a dangerous world.
Pema Pera: that is not the main oint, Samuel
Pema Pera: *point
Pema Pera: we are exploring first, and then trying to infer what it means later
Pema Pera: yes, Mick?
Pema Pera: sure, TR!
Pema Pera: so we're trying to look beyond that (<- TR)
TR Amat: Yes, so if survival is a given, you can try alternative modes of perception.
TR Amat: Certainly a longer term view might help with a lot of todays and future problems.
Mickorod Renard: I was wondering if Pema had any first hand discoveries he could share with us?
TR Amat: More tools to go in the mental tool box! :)
Mickorod Renard: of lost and now found perceptions
Mickorod Renard: I am facinated in this subject
Andrej Babenco: SL give u a lot of new sensations...
Pema Pera: Mick: see http://pheno.wik.is/Reports/Pema_Pera
Andrej Babenco: and perceptions
Pema Pera: and see http://pheno.wik.is/Reports for reports of all of us
Mickorod Renard: ty Pema,,,,i did do a report in the google
TR Amat: In SL it might appear you are recycling your RL reflexes to handle a new environment.
You: Yes Mick I really enjoyed your posting
genesis Zhangsun: I added some comments about it
TR Amat: Some research supports this view.
Mickorod Renard: yes ty,,very kind to
Pema Pera: oh, I see that we have talked for just about an hour
Andrej Babenco: maybe..but if u have an open mind...
Pema Pera: we probably should stop here . . .
Pema Pera: we could go on forever :-)
Pema Pera: Any last question/suggestion?
arabella Ella: so sorry i was late Pema I had RL committments
Pema Pera: np, Arabella :)
genesis Zhangsun: Please if you would like to join the group add yourself to our pheno google group!
TR Amat: Do you think any experimentation of necessity has to come back to the real world? On some level?
genesis Zhangsun: and if you would like to see our past explorations or want to participate and submit a lab report, go to the wiki
Pema Pera: well, RL and SL are not isolated . . .
genesis Zhangsun: http://pheno.wik.is/Reports
Andrej Babenco: yes SL is an extension of RL..i think..
Pema Pera: an interesting question though, one we can take up next week!
Pema Pera: thank you all for joining us here!
TR Amat: Some philosophical work that I've seen seems to tend to wander off and get lost in the meta physics.
Maxine Walden: thanks to everone. See you next week
genesis Zhangsun: Oh I'm sorry if you would like to be added to the Phenomenology google group then please submit a request
genesis Zhangsun: to be added
TR Amat: I wonder how best to avoid that.
Storm Nordwind hopes to have transferred mailing list notes to the Wiki by next week!
Mickorod Renard: thankyou Pema and the team
Pema Pera: we avoid that by doing experiments rather than only talking about them, TR
Pema Pera: see the wiki
Pema Pera: bye for now, everybody -- hope to see you next week, if not earlier!
Maxine Walden: bye all
Kore Jardberg: Thank you all
Mickorod Renard: bye
Andrej Babenco: bye
Wol Euler: bye pena
Wol Euler: *pema
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone see you next week!
arabella Ella: bye
Wol Euler: bye all, enjoy the weekend
Wester Kiranov: bye
TR Amat: I need to go re-read the wiki...
Andrej Babenco: yes TR..me too
Scathach Rhiadra: night all
Mickorod Renard: bye folks,,nice seein you all
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Mick!
genesis Zhangsun: By Scat!
Samuel Okelly: tc mick
arabella Ella: must go too thanks and bye everyone!
Mickorod Renard: bye,,and thankyou for your response to my report Gen,,it was very kind and encouraging
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Paula Dix: bye all :)
Mickorod Renard: by sam
genesis Zhangsun: keep writing them ok?
Mickorod Renard: ok
Mickorod Renard: i have more time now
TR Amat: I have less. :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: bye Tr
TR Amat: Bye Mickorod
Samuel Okelly: thanks for an interesting evening every1 :) tc

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